arafat dies
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- laurus0
Unfit, it's somewhat true.
But if you compare the scale... There were quite a few incidents. These people were considered extremists—they weren't the leaders.
The Haganah, which later lead the country were against it.
More than 90% of the population was against it—they even gave the terrorists to the British—who, by the way, hung them—this is known as the sezon.
The fact that there were Jewish terrorists doesn't make it right.
And fuck it, my best friend is German and his grandfather was in the SS. My folks grew up under British occupation.
My point is—peace can be achived. But not by rewarding people like Arafat or Sharon.
- Anarchitect0
true.
and both sides have to divorce themselves from any messianic vision of the problem.
- Kuz0
laurus
I disagree with you massively. But since you bring history up i have to adress it.
You bring up a couple of interesting points. Firstly that Muslims are incapable of living alongside minorities. This is the kind of distortions that are being thown around today in order to simplify the myriad of conflicts affecting the post-colonial post-cold war post-globalisation world. I could recount many many examples of Muslim rulers living peacefully alongside other religious minorities throughout their 1500year history. From Akbar in India who had Hindu priests as advisers to the Mongol Khans. I could go on for ever talking about that stuff.
Anyway, I can understand your own insecurity living as Jew in a sea of Arabs so I'll just mention something about that.. The first Zionist congress took place in 1896 in Switzerland following the growing wave of anti-semitism in Europe. By 1897 thousands of European Jews started settling in Palestine. They lived alongside about a million Arab residents in what was then part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. A second wave of about 40,000 immigrants arrived in the region between 1904 and 1914. The Muslim rulers of Turkey oversaw this immigration and allowed it. So i don't know where you get this idea of Muslims are incapable of tolerating minorities when the first Jewish settlers in Palestine obviously felt that the Arabs had a much more tolerant society than the Europeans (and if you check history this is very much the case for over a thousand years).
Indeed Arabs and Jews had been living alongside each other for centuries. There were conflicts, and sectarian violence, not least perpetrated by the Jews against the arab (as in the 14th century when Mongolians invaded Persia and the Persian Jews conspired with them to exterminate the Muslims and establish a Jewish kingdom). But anyway, shit happens., and the blame game gets noone anywhere.
Then world war 1 happened, Britain destroyed the Turkish Empire and took over all the Middle East, including Palestine. The British Foreign Minister Arthur Balfour committed Britain to work towards the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. It became known as the Balfour Declaration. This was cynical anti-Sematic attempt to get rid of the Jews in Europe and dump them in Palestine.
I dont know how you can justify this and think this was a good idea. If Balfour was that concerned about Jews in Europe, then why not say "hey, Jews, come to Britain, we are tolerant". Anyway The Zionist project of the 1920s and 1930s saw hundreds of thousands of Jews emigrating to Palestine, provoking unrest in the Arab community. Arab discontent exploded into a general strike in 1936. By this time, the militant Zionist group Irgun Zvai Leumi was orchestrating attacks on Palestinian and British targets with the aim of "liberating" Palestine and Transjordan (modern-day Jordan) by force .
In July 1937, Britain, recommended partitioning the land into a Jewish state and an Arab one.
Palestinians rejected this and demanded an end to immigration and the safeguarding of a single unified state with protection of minority rights. Violent opposition continued until 1938 when it was crushed with reinforcements from the UK.
You might be interested to know how many Jews living in Jersualem and throughout the Arab world were against the creatiion of Israel. I read a book by an Iraqi Jew who was forced to leave Iraq - think it was Yaov Peled. How European Jews forced Israel onto Arab Jews who were assimilated into Arab populations for centuries and were successful businessmen etc.. and how he and his parents resented the fact that they were forced to move into Israel and blames not the Arabs, but the European Zionists for their predicament.
I dont know where you get the idea that most Jewish lands before 1948 were legally bought - you must have an interesting idea of legality which encompasses the Brisih Empire as a legal entitiy.
And yes the Arabs saw themselves as one people, but what I was saying is that the Palestinians who had been made refugees following the creation of Israel were subsumed into this Arab identitiy and their individual needs were ignored. And it wasn't until the 1970s that the Palestinians as a seperate people began to be recognised. Regardless of the fact that the Palestinians had been fighting alongside other Arabs against Israel during the 50s, and had been causing unrest in Jordan during that time. The point I was making was that by the beginning of the 70s they had all but been ignored and had to fight for recognition during that period. Which is where the Munich Olympics and the plane hi-jackings come in. That was their purpose. They were unrecognised until they made themselves recognised.
And this whole Muslim intolerance crap. I dont know where to begin with that, and it really pisses me off when people start throwing this shit around. Firstly the Kurds in Iraq happen to be Muslim as well. Secondly you're taking examples of Islamic extremism and tarring the whole 1.5billion muslims in the world with the same brush. Thirdly the Palestinians are a secular bunch, the PLO has many Chrisitians in it's leadership - the Al Aqsa martyrs brigade is a secular group that has had some Christian suicide bombers. Thirdly Iraq (was), Syria, Lebanon are SECULAR countries with Muslim majorities. Fourthly Muslims aren't the only people to oppress minorities Think about the Tamil in Sri Lanka, and well loads more across the word i cant be bothere mentioning. Fifthly, Islamic extremism has exploded over the last few years, but , as I wrote in a previous post, it's the fault of Israel for declaring an exclusively Jewish state in the heart of the Muslim world - which reminds people of that region too much of the crusades of the middle ages. Not to mention the way the United States promoted and played extremism against the Soviets throughout the Middle East and Afghanistan and directly led to the growth of ultra-orthodox Islam.
Anyway, right now there are many many mlitant muslims who want to drive out all jews from Israel - as there are many many Jews who would want to drive out all Arabs/Muslims out of the whole of Transjordan and send em back to Mecca and reestablish Solomon's empire. But then you have to deal with these problems in a grown up way. Many muslim countries are dealing with extremists trying to overthrow their governements, like Pakistan, and the, Malaysia, and others - but you don't see them giving out collective punishment and saying "we can't live with a single one of these people". It is Israel's responsibility, as the ruler/opressor, to foster an atmophere of understanding and to allow Palestinians the option to live peacefully alongside Jews by returning their dignity in a secular state that recognises more than one group of people share that land. And deal with the terrorists when those problems arise. How different things would be in northern ireland if Britain treated the catholics there how Israel has been treating the Palestinians.
Also, the problem is, as unfit's post on Mahatma Ghandi states, that if you're born in Portugal, and you're a Jew or a Christian, a gypsy or a homosexual - you're still portugeuse. Why you think, just cos you're a minority you have to take over someone elses country and make them homeless is beyond me.
Anyway i'm sick of talking about Arafat. He had major flaws - and he is NOT the 8th riches man in the world. A lot of mud is being thrown at him, some true some not. But we have a difference of perspective and i'm willing to forgive him a lot . So whatever. And I never called him Che.
- Kuz0
sorry laurus, I know you want to underplay the role of the Jewish terrorists in the establishment of Israel. But don't forget it was because of this terorism that the British got sick of Palestine and the case of Israel was forced. It was becuase of the conflict created against the native palestinians. Terrorism works, even if it is perptrated by a minority.
You could just easily say that Palestinian terrorists are a minority (which they are) and that the PLO has been opressing its own people by torturing and imprisoning some of these terrorists (i know because they have been forced into it by Israel and US and UK - but still),
Anyway, i know we disagree on a lot, but we also agree on a lot. so peace/salaam/shalom
- Baskerville0
WOW: 1,300 words thats got to be the longest post I've ever seen here.
It's a very interesting discussion. The only thing that I would add would be a request to organise and define the terms being used.
The words Arab, Jew and Palestinian are not really comparative.It occurs a lot in the news as well but the word jew is refering to a religion, the same as muslim does.
Arab is a term which seems to cover people from all over the middle east
Palestinian refers to someone from Palestine.However all three terms are being used in a number of different contexts.
I think the term Israeli should be used instead of jew when considering teritorial issues (ie comparing 'palesine' with 'israel'. Equally jew should only be used when comparing 'jew' and 'muslim'
I don't feel that Jews are a race of people but people of a certain religious belief.
- MX_OnD0
Kuz,
I want to thank you for taking the time and energy to write. I've read through the whole thread and your points are the most balanced.
I agree whole heartedly that what is in the past is in the past, the present and the future are the only things that need be of any concern.
My parents lived in Adis Abeba for a spell and I know that in Ethiopia Muslims and Coptic Crhistians live in perfect harmony - even to the extent that the Coptics close their offices for Ramadan and the Mosques close at Easter. If there can be harmony, tolerance and acceptance there then there can be elsewhere too.
- laurus0
Kuz,
Well, you are more or less right in some aspects. But Yoav Peled is not taken seriously even by most Iraqi Jews. There was a very strong Zionist movement in Iraq. You cannot compare the elightened Islamic empire of Turkey to Nowadays arab countries.
As for a Jew living in Portugal—didn't the Portugese and the Spaniards kick out all the Jews that were not willing to convert in 1492? We saw how peacefull resistence helped the Jews in WWII.
The Jews had very little choice.
Now there's a choice wether to dwell on history and go back to King David or Muhammed and open old wounds or to burry the hatchet and try to figure out a solution both sides can live with.
- k0na_an0k0
of aids.
- laurus0
ok, I had enough.
let's pick on Jakob Nielsen or something.
- k0na_an0k0
i'm not picking on him.
i think that it is true. it won't come out for maybe the next 10 to 20 years but it's the truth.
the facts:
- did you see the way he looked?!?
- three + years he and his wife were never in the same room. she was for show.
- you have any gay friends?!? i do... they all thought he was gay for YEARS.
- it can't come out because it would kill the muslim community there so they put it under wrap as a brain hemmorage. comon. we all know better.the bcc actually had a very small article on it yesterday as well claiming much the same thing. sorry, but it's true.
when it finally does come out i'll expect an appology.
- vespa0
jakob says we'll never really know the truth. in the mean time he's happy for us to pick on him instead.
- vespa0
oops that should have been
jakob says we'll never really know the truth. in the mean time he's happy for us to pick on him instead.
- k0na_an0k0
hahaha. now jacob i COULD pick on ALL day.
- Kuz0
- you have any gay friends?!? i
do... they all thought he was gay for YEARS.k0na_an0k
(nov 12 04, 06:54)
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lolthat's so funny k0na... he wore a scarf! How gay is that! And look at the way he held his AK-47 - soooo limp wristed! I mean totally gay. Details should do a "gay or Arafat" feature. Wore black designer Italian shades in the 60s? - gay.
oh and thanks Mx, i have too much time on my hands on Fridays ;)
- k0na_an0k0
you have gay-dar don't you?!?
either way. when it comes out i will email you and you can reply with an appology.
- Kuz0
does gay-dar come with my basic cable subscription?
- k0na_an0k0
if cable = your dick, it should.
- Kuz0
my dick has gay-dar? i never knew...
- k0na_an0k0
we could go back and forth all day.
- Kuz0
we could. And after i started that lovely thread wishing you well in your contest..