AIG Outrage
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- ********0
and "qualified" ? That is some BS terminology right there. Seems to the "qualified" need to be hung and quartered.
- monNom0
these bonuses were likely contractual --based on performance. I bet every single one of those guys 'performed' just how they were asked to. The fact that AIG had no money behind all the swaps it wrote was probably not a clause in the contract.
- like others have said, this is a sideshow to dodge the real issue.monNom
- monNom0
that's because auto unions hate america.
AIG employees in London are patriots.
- Ramanisky20
there is a special place in hell for those greedy fucks .. aye mon
- TheBlueOne0
The problem is that their are two different things here..their are actions that are good for the longterm existence of the companies in question, and then their are actions that are good for the short-term career of these execs. I'd guess 96% of them do what's good for their careers and don't give a shit about what happens to the company after they're gone.
- Well hell, I think that's true of most people, not just guys in suits.skelly_b
- yes, that's what laws and regulations are for.TheBlueOne
- WOW TBO only got 1 out of 4 of his 'there, they're, their' grammar points on this one. Low score sir, low score.tommyo
- TheBlueOne0
"The fact that AIG had no money behind all the swaps it wrote was probably not a clause in the contract. "
No, that was a feature and not a bug of these Credit Default Swaps. They let you invent money out of thin air..and then split it up and sell it at a profit to other rubes...has nothing to do with AIG or executive contracts
- skelly_b0
So if your employer contractually owed you a few million for the work you've done, you'd ask them not to pay if they got themselves in trouble? Me personally, I'd make sure I got what was mine.
- What if you're work was the cause of the trouble? Which is the rub in this case..TheBlueOne
- A lot of people work for that corporate giant. Should the punishment apply to all employees?skelly_b
- the issue is for the bonuses of those in the financial sector of AIG who underwrote the cds'TheBlueOne
- TheBlueOne0
I just get blown away by some of you conservative guys here and in general. Union guys or people on welfare walk away with pennies on the dollar because they somehow "own the government", yet corporate finance guys who are on the revolving treadmill between corporate payroll, lobbyist and then government and than walk away with trillions represent the best of the American free enterprise system and should be able to get "government off their backs"...THEY are the government, not some schlub union worker...Geinther wrote the fuckign AIG contract ffs and now he goes on TV with faux outrage about it..it's a fucking laugh..
- skelly_b0
Fairness has nothing to do with anything. The question is about legal obligations. Does it stink, sure does, but what's the other option? Spend even more money on court battles with embittered management? If these bonuses are that bad, then we should have let the ship go down, letting bankruptcy void all those obligations.
- It's political now as soon as the Taxpayer owns 80% of your business.TheBlueOne
- TheBlueOne0
Re: the whole "Let's let AIG just fail!" idea:
"Respectfully, you guys are totally misunderstanding something crucial in the AIG bailout: Derivatives claims are not stayed in bankruptcy. (Yet another brilliant innovation from the 2005 bankruptcy reform legislation.)
If AIG were to go down, derivatives counterparties would be able to seize cash/collateral while other creditors and claimants would have to stand by and wait. Depending on how aggressive the insurance regulators in the hundreds of jurisdictions AIG operates have been, the subsidiaries might or might not have enough cash to stay afloat. If policyholders at AIG and other insurance companies started to cancel/cash in policies, there would definitely not be enough cash to pay them. Insurers would be forced to liquidate portfolios of equities and bonds into a collapsing market.
In other words, I don't think the fear was so much about the counterparties as about the smoking heap of rubble they would leave in their wake.
Additionally, naming AIG's counterparties without knowing/naming those counterparties' counterparties and clients would be at best useless, and very likely dangerous. Let's say Geithner acknowledges that Big French Bank is a significant AIG counterparty. (Likely, but I have no direct knowledge.) BFB then issues a statement confirming this, but stating it was structuring deals for its clients, who bear all the risk on the deals, and who it can't name due to confidentiality clauses. Since everyone knows BFB specialized in setting up derivatives transactions for state-affiliated banks in Central and Eastern Europe, these already wobbly institutions start to face runs. In some cases this leads to actual riots in the streets, especially since the governments there don't have the reserves to help out. If you're Tim Geithner, do you risk it? Or do you grit your teeth and let a bunch of senators call you a scumbag for a few more hours?"
- No matter how you look at it, it's a clusterfuck.TheBlueOne
- ********0
if they weigh more than a duck...
- ********0
I'd vote for you Blue.
- no shit.DrBombay
- Oh god, that'd mean I'd have to give up booze, womanizing and paying all my back taxes...no thanks..TheBlueOne
- :DTheBlueOne
- GeorgesII0
btw how is it outragous?
where were you when it was going down,
this isn't even the tip of the iceberg.
- georgesll, your attitude pisses me off sometimes.DrBombay
- The outrage has been ongoing. It takes a while to come to a head.TheBlueOne
- but you do love it,
say it!!GeorgesII - And you're right, AIG isn't the tip..it's the goddamn heart.TheBlueOne
- yeah, but you say things that have been said before too much :DDrBombay
- I'M JUST SICK OF THIS BS.
:)GeorgesII
- skelly_b0
If you see the point in bailing them out, then what's wrong with keeping your management in place and happy? Obviously some people made some bad decisions, but there is also some smart, talented people that are needed to get things back in order.
- GeorgesII0
^^
- TheBlueOne0
skelly_b makes a point..and while the point is grating, there is a grain of truth to it. The problem is that, other than the ethical quandry of rewarding failure, the bonus issue is now a political problem. It is a political problem for the current administration, as well as for all the banks involved that are hoping to receive future government handouts.If the public just starts seeing money go out to people that fucked things up, the political will to continue to rescue institutions (if it needs to be done) will be gone *poof*.
There ARE no easy answers here...hold on, let me copy and paste what I sent to my friend earlier today:
It's a clusterfuck of a situation..I understand and am sympathetic with the "torches and pitchforks" crowd, but understand that the situation really is far more complex than simply "let the banks fail" or "nationalize them!"..the first option is populist but ensures short-term global financial ruin. The second option will be a political mindfield with the opposition party using all sorts of rhetoric to undermine it's success, and even it's "success" is questionable; it would in essence "politicize" many financial questions (the AIG bonuses is a precursor example) that would make any rational plan nearly untenable.
I think Obama is trying to thread the difference, but it's really not working...
- ********0
you guys are fools, do the research on AIG and you will see the government encouraged AIG to give bonuses and loans to low income families and illegals. It started with Frank, dodd and then bush. And actually it went back before that. You fucking sheep are fucking sheep. All's you have to do is search the net, the truth is out there right in front of your face but you pussies just don't want to believe it. You blame is on some right or left politician instead of doing the leg work yourself. All you little bitches that say you're outraged is just another pussy who can't research the information on their own.
- skelly_b0
and that's all I ask, keep in my this is big complicated clusterfuck that makes it very hard to determine who fucked what. What we do know we don't want the entire house of cards tumbling, so we have to cheat with some scotch tape, keep the important parts standing.
Moving forward we have to examine these financial tricks that caused some of these problems, try to avoid so much funny money in future.
- GeorgesII0
ahhaah I'm going to bed,
goodnight all