brother lost job to india
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- lowimpakt0
being made redundant is one of the worst situations for anyone, no matter where they are from.
the fault isn't with the IBM workers or the Indian designers.
It is the fault of the people who created the system of globalisation as a means of making large profits for the few rather than some profit for the many.
- great answerMeeklo
- <+1
wow what a thread :)alicetheblue - commie!!brandelec
- jk! chill outbrandelec
- nice words lowimpakt, you should be president!jimzyk
- styleplus_amillion0
^ that's an ok point.
If I made the same point, you'd all be bitching an whining about conspiracies
- but I still embrace ironystyleplus_amillion
- you're paranoid. you talk shit and drop the thread when things get too complicated.zarkonite
- ukit0
With all the doom and gloom about outsourcing, has anyone noticed that a lot of the innovation in the technology world still happens in the U.S.?
Google, Apple, Microsoft, Mozilla, Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, YouTube...all American companies.
Maybe they are outsourcing some of their development work but the innovation and new ideas are still happening here. I'm not saying that won't change but America has a pretty damn good track record at the moment.
- zarkonite0
I wouldn't even call what happened here outsourcing to be honest. IBM is a global company and they've announced over a decade ago that they were opening business centers in India, they've invested BILLIONS in training. It's all part of the plan, this is just one stage of it. It's not like they're going to be hiring a third party to slap shit together, it's all IBM following IBM standards.
Now regarding American Design being impossible to replace, all american design is based in european design at its core. While we were busy exterminating the natives and grizzly bears and digging for oil and gold they were perfect their design skills ... we just happen to pick up some of their knowledge and run with it so it can be done, even by Indians.
Look at how wildly successful companies like Nintendo, Sony, Samsung, Toyota, Nissan, etc. are even though they come from totally different cultures. I have a hard time believing that a culture as ancient and vibrant as indian culture does not have the base required to thrive and built itself back up. Let's not forget that India is down because they were mercilessly crushed and exploited by the english, otherwise they were already writting philosophy before even the Romans had built an empire.
- SteveJobs0
at least he has a job through november. that's plenty of time to start working on his resume and an early exit.
meanwhile, many of the currently unemployed sustain a living on ramen noodles till they get a job.
- janne760
the indians will rule us soon! fucking indians, i never liked them and their shitty names, like Sitting Bull and shit like that..
- designbot0
I don't think any of the companies you listed have been successful because the design or marketing somehow bridged the chasm between cultures.....but because they are good products. Plus all those companies you listed use American ad agencies to market to Americans anyhow.
- @ zarkonitedesignbot
- true their ads are made here, but their product design destroyed ours and that was made over there.zarkonite
- when you speak of "product design" you are really speaking of Japanese engineering no? We were talking strictly about design...as in web/print design.designbot
- design...as in web/print design.designbot
- yeah, I guess I figured since this is an IBM thread that segwayed into design I'd just go broader =)zarkonite
- I see :)designbot
- zarkonite0
It's just like Hollywood movies, everyone watches them. What's so special about California that it transcends all those cultural barriers you speak of?
- So, to stay on topic. Are you saying you would outsource American web/print design to India and expect good results?designbot
- I would not. I would see no problem with a company expanding its operations over there and with time they'd be just as good.zarkonite
- just as good. Trends change, new technologies allow for new possibilities.. we're not always gonna be ultimate #1, things evolve too fast.zarkonite
- monNom0
Creativity and inventiveness require time for experimentation and reflection. You're not likely to get that paying a rock bottom wage to a designer/developer and then squeezing for higher productivity. You get the same shit results in America when you do the same thing. Indian design/development will mature, but the cost will increase as it does.
- zarkonite0
@designbot:
but yeah part of what I'm saying is about engineering, there is industrial and product design involved in making electronics and games... I just don't see how a cultural divide could bar someone from being good for something as subjective as design. I'm french canadian and I'm surrounded by people that are culturally different from me, I see it on a daily basis now that I live in calgary (more so when I was living in London) but it's transparent most of the time.
I regularly get praised for having "an original" take on certain design problems but deep down I know I'm being pretty fucking generic, that is if I were still in Montreal.
- I hear ya. Certainly there are good Indian designers. I just think the mentality is much different...and you can't really outsource design for rock bottom prices and expect some great result.designbot
- outsource design for rock bottom prices and expect some great result.designbot
- Sure there will be exceptions to this rule and folks who can design across cultures effectively. But you can't ignore the cultural differencesdesignbot
- the cultural differences and language barriers that exist. These are real problems.designbot
- plus doesn't it make you kind of mad that companies like IBM are doing nothing more than exploiting India to make more profit?designbot
- profit?designbot
- the way I see it, both our countries suffer.designbot
- Oh I'm fucking enraged at this shit, I hope some other IT company hires these competant workers and fucks IBM up the ass with a new and better product.zarkonite
- IBM up their ass with a new and better product.zarkonite
- haha...me too.designbot
- lowimpakt0
I think people here are underestimating the degree to which many designers are trained to replicate and mimic. just think about the ability to design something "on brand". it is formulaic and can be repeated elsewhere.
also people underestimate the degree to which countries like China are investing in design. There are now tens of thousands of design graduates being produced by Chinese universities every year.
Yes, many of the graduate they are producing are behind in terms of strategic skills, user-centric design methods (e.g. applied anthropology) and brand development but they are not far off.
And the fact that only a handful of US design school are producing graduates of this calibre should be of concern.
you need a national design policy, like, yesterday doooood.
- mikotondria30
Oh come on, it fucking sucks being made redundant and having to train your replacement.. Someone who they can pay a fraction of your salary, only because the labor laws there allow it.
It's morally bankrupt of them to stick these people in the shit like this, and just cry 'free market' 'globalization' and all that guff - they are part of the community, part of society, and through their greed are now putting many families, and families who relied on them, in deep shit and misery as if somehow they have no responsibility to anyone other than their accountants and shareholders. Well that might be the bottom line as far as it's been legislated, but real life is made of familes round tables, and counting pennies and lying awake worrying about feeding your kids. Anything else is just numbers on paper, theoretical, non-existential bullshit. There are NO worthwhile labor laws in this country - 'Right To Work' states !? What a fucking bullshit law - right to behave irresponsibly, like a cunt, whenever it suits you for any reason.
Sorry, this is reprehensible bullshit, and someone somewhere who made this shit-faces decision to further their own career ONLY deserves cancer of their fucking face.
- lowimpakt0
i think your key point above miko is "responsibility".
We had a very long debate in work today about the concept of responsibility in business. The main outcome of this debate was that while most businesses remin legally bound to maximisation of profit and real concepts of social/environmental responsibility will be a long way off.
- and people will continue to fuck other people over, while everyone else tacitly approves and/or does nothing. Great.mikotondria3
- zarkonite0
Miko:
those are valid sentiments, I just don't know how poorer countries (made poor by us btw) are supposed to get out of their own problems?
Right now the workers are being screwed out of their jobs for the stockholders but few of us realize how much of our investments and retirement money is riding on the performance of those companies that are outsourcing in order to keep their growth... chicken and the egg really.
- they are inferior. we don't need to look after them. come on. *puffs pipejanne76
- janne760
what does IBM make really? i don't see any of their shit in the stores here to be honest..
- http://top500.org/li… - you just don't shop at the right stores =)zarkonite
- ukit0
They just do shit, don't question it
- ukit0
The flip side of this is that without outsourcing we would not be able to buy an iPhone or a PSP or Nike shoes or the new Kayne West/ Coldplay CD for cheap.
What would you rather have, no outsourcing and never able to get those things, or outsourcing and cheap stuff?
- we always had some way or other of exploiting people. Ask any south american or african =)zarkonite