Nazi > healthcare
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- raf0
I wonder if Americans here realize the extent of socialist absurdity in Europe. In many countries here if you don't feel like working you go on welfare for ages and in many cases pocket more money than people who work. Your duties are to pick up the cash at your local post office once a week and signing up at the welfare office monthly.
In Ireland, you get 12 days paid holidays on welfare.
Recently, Irish government increased both taxes on working people and welfare payments. How can a system like this not suffocate itself?- I haven't joined in a heated debate for a while - but is this guy for real?Beeachboy
- Not sure what this has to do with healthcare but...DrBombay
- I know Dobs, it's a bit of an Euro perspective thoughraf
- not its a bullshit persepctive, this isn't true about europe at all. WTF people on welfare are rich and have it easy? PLease.lazerbass
- Raf, why on Earth would they set the monthly welfare allowance lower than minimum working wage?Eighty
- It's true for a number of families with an extortionate number of children, but those days are well & truely numbered.Eighty
- have another 'number'.Eighty
- ProTroll0
Who cares, let them fail.
- lukus_W0
Socialism is about putting people above profit.
I find it ridiculous that so many people in America seem to view socialism so negatively - is it because they're equating it with communism?
The majority of societies' recent problems have be caused by greedy self-interested bastards. The rich will always be okay, and the poor will most like _stay_ poor unless the system helps to redress the balance.
The main problem with the world is that anyone who has accumulated any wealth, generally will do _anything_ to not have to give any of it away.
I reckon the main reason people don't like the idea of a more accessible health care system in the 'states is because they don't want to have to pay for a body of people who in all likelihood will stay poor for the rest of their life. As I see it - it's a morally corrupt standpoint, and should be completely un-acceptable to any society that wants to see itself as civilised.
I think that a major reason that concepts of 'socialism' are frowned upon in the US so vehemently, is that Americans have had the myth of the 'American Dream' drummed into them so severely that they can't help but believe it.
Once upon a time it was probably very likely that any person, with a bit of effort and determination, could make it rich - but now the gap between the rich and the poor is so wide, that moving up from the bottom end of the social scale is more akin to winning the lottery, than fulfilling an American birth-right.
The reason I think that the concept of the American Dream is so problematic, is because believing in it leads to the idea that people who are poor, are poor because they're lazy. (i.e. if they'd get up off their butts and work, they'd be rich like the rest of society). This notion is quite frankly bullshit. Being born into money, generally means that you'll be rich for life; and the opposite is also true unless we enable our governments to help those who are more disadvantaged.
America needs to look after it's poor.
- American Dream is "Life, Liberty & the pursuit of Happiness"...robotron3k
- but that "Happiness" part is not guaranteed...robotron3k
- I could have sworn it was life, celebrity and the pursuit of wealth.lukus_W
- well said lukuslambsy
- ukit0
"anything state-run will be highly cost-inefficient compared with a private sector based solution. It's always the case when bureaucrats spend money which isn't theirs. It's natural."
Yeah you kind of summed up the mentality a lot of people have here. But I think that's only true if you also have a government that acts as a neutral regulator. It should be obvious you can't let private companies do whatever the hell they want, do you really trust oligarchic private companies any more than the government? Do you trust Bill Gates deciding what goes on the web or Enron running energy?
Competition only works when there actually is competition. In a pure capitalist system with no regulation the people running things can do whatever they want.
In America wealth has gotten concentrated in so few hands that they have turned around and rigged the system to their benefit. When Bush wrote an energy bill literally did invite Enron into a closed door meeting and help write the bill. The American government is so compromised it's pretty much just a tool for the richest people in the country to get what they want. I don't know if you call that socialism, corporatism, or what, but it's definitely bad.
- mathinc0
^^ I agree with you.. so how do you feel about:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/20…
- mathinc0
Look, the only way to fix this shit is to keep a better eye on our representatives. They're supposed to be elected to uphold the constitution and make the decisions that give us all an opportunity at a better life. IMO, they just keep on failing us, and we do nothing to stop it. All the while the media outlets love to grab the low hanging fruit to legitimize the 'angle' of their audience which only serves to divide us all.
We need more politicians that care only about doing the right thing. Personally I like Ron Paul for this exact reason, I may not agree with some of his issues, but the guy doesn't sell out and he's a strict constitutionalist. But regardless, we need to do more as people. Because this shit where our representatives vote on bills they haven't read, making backroom deals with corporations, spend money frivolously and take whatever they need from their indentured customer base (us) has gone way too far. We should be expecting much more from them, and our media.
- Yep, this and get rid of health insurance as we know it.DrBombay
- I agree - but then, the people who want to govern generally crave power. Maybe the people who should lead, are the people who don't want to?lukus_W
- people who don't want to?lukus_W
- I agree Rick we need a new system, but you and do not agree on the solution.mathinc
- Insurance companies make 35 percent and create no value.DrBombay
- I agree, they are a big part of the problem. But the solution you're after only theoretically turns corp profits into gov waste..mathinc
- There will be no savings, we'll all just be forced to pay for it now. It's a systemic problem and we're not getting any systemicmathinc
- solutions proposed to us.mathinc
- raf0
Interesting point, lazerbass.
Scott Adams, the author of Dilbert once wrote in one of the books' prefaces what he thought was wrong with corporations: communism.
The fact that there is no single owner, only a large group of faceless shareholders creates a notion of the company belonging to nobody in particular. Hence the emergence of mechanisms and behaviours anong all staff typical to communism: lack of care, purposeless actions, waste of resources, theft (ie. of company time by slacking off).
- GeorgesII0
^
So obama is a communist baby killer,
I get it
- ProTroll0
Kill a commie for mommy.
- robotron3k0
^ Shame to You!
- ProTroll0
Internal Memo Confirms Big Giveaways In White House Deal With Big Pharma
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/20…
Whats going on here?
- DrBombay0
Sure you would love for them to scorched earth tell big pharma to fuck off, but it isn't the way it works. There will always be give and take. Imagine what would have happened with McCain as President. There would be no give and take, it would be all take.
- ProTroll0
Right so how about them promises?
"the deal seemed to be a betrayal of several promises made by then-Sen. Obama during the presidential campaign, among them that he would use the power of government to drive down the costs of drugs to Medicare and that negotiations would be conducted in the open."
- FREE HEALTH CARE except the drugs, pay MORE AND MORE!ProTroll
- I don't respond to trolls. I hope you die of aids in a hurricane on welfare.DrBombay
- doom and destruction... Rick... wishing horrible things on people who disagree with you.. status quo for you. cunt.mathinc
- His name is ProTroll and you call me out? Nice work, dude.DrBombay
- See, this is all a game to you. There are more than 2 sides, and all I did was attack you, not support him. I know you don't get itmathinc
- it though. Which amuses me to no end.mathinc
- You let the trolls ride and ride my jock like a tricycle. You are a fucking clown.DrBombay
- Agree or die, the narrow minded American way.MrDinky
- Leave me alone, I thought you were better than qbn arguments, that is what you said. Get off my balls.DrBombay
- I shouldn't say that I live in the USA.MrDinky
- And the troll stands there unscathed. You people are fucking ridiculous.DrBombay
- haha yeah I ride and ride you because you're a buffoon. Simple.mathinc
- You are a cunt too, Donky.DrBombay
- Screw politicans no matter whoMrDinky
- YOU'RE A TROLL. Just because you've been here a long time doesn't make you any less. You're a long-term troll.mathinc
- Awesome point DrB you got proof? Where is the proof!!MrDinky
- I agree with Dinky.mathinc
- No point in going on any further in this. It is all a rehash of previous notes.DrBombay
- DrB is no troll just a webmaster. A dumb one but no troll.MrDinky
- I disagree: http://en.wikipedia.…)mathinc
- Hmm with that proof, I must agree with you. Sorry DrB, mathinc has proof!MrDinky
- I am not anonymous, I stay on topic, it's relevant. So GFYDrBombay
- mathinc0
Rick, you're a bloody moron and you work exactly like FOX does.. 'Imagine if McCain was president!!' Have an original thought you slimy little bug.
Seriously start expecting more from these fuckers. Imagine if it was Bush making backroom deals with big pharma. You'd have a completely different outlook.
'but it isn't the way it works' right, you're against politicians sucking up to big corp unless it's your guy. Blow me. Hypocritical Idealism.
- DrBombay0
I am convinced this is how it works no matter who is president. You talk about Ron Paul, that guy couldn't get elected dog catcher outside of the southwest. It is called reality.
- Then sir, you have no ideals or principles.mathinc
- And niether does Ron Paul, shitface. See two posts down.DrBombay
- You're a puppet and you vote for puppet shows.mathinc
- Did you vote for Ron Paul?DrBombay
- How'd that work out for you?DrBombay
- So you can only support people who are electable?mathinc
- Again, you have no principles. You just like having a winning team.mathinc
- Yeah, like how I supported Bush for 8 years...DrBombay
- That makes zero sense.. care to clarify? And if you're cooking up one of your 'oh I remember when you said ____' bullshit liesmathinc
- then I'd like you to take a second and think about how that last one turned out for you.mathinc
- I see what you meant.. I ate too much for lunch and my head is fuzzy.. not even planning on responding to it though.mathinc
- DrBombay0
If at this point you still can't tell? I do not give a flying fuck what you think Tommy. You call me out over people who call themselves trolls... think about that shit.
- I call you out because I detest the way you present yourself. I don't have enough free time to detest everyone, just you. :)mathinc
- ukit0
Ron Paul is no different. The guy talks a good game but even on something like spending do you know that for years he would insert earmarks and giveaways for his district into bills just like any politician.
And then vote against the bill, because he knew it was going to pass, while pretending to stand on principle. I mean, cmon.
- Proof?mathinc
- btw, if that's all you have against him...... :)mathinc
- I found it.. and I do not agree with Paul on this at all. http://libertymaven.…mathinc
- lukus_W0
Maybe lobbyists are a reality and have to be bargained with. Maybe all governments bargain with lobbyists?
- handle0
Communism, while a great idealistic thought, in reality cant work. Yes it will work for awhile within a government that has a capitalistic working class, but over time as you take from the working class and give to others you begin to break down the overall incentive to work for excellence. It breeds mediocrity and more laziness, which in turn, produces less and less profits to sustain a communism system. You can already see the breakdown in the US by all of the government programs for handouts and such... each generation produces more dependents (willing and non-willing) on government programs—thus more strain on the working class. It's not about morality, there should always be a concern and way of helping the needy and poor, but to say that everyone will get "x" amount for "y" work and think people will work hard and continue to innovate is asinine, just not in human nature to do so.
Possible exceptions where something like Communism has a chance to work is in a dictatorship which has its people working in fear- ie. North Korea (not fun). And possibly a country that has valuable natural resources in which its government manages fairly and offsets the lack of profits created in its communist system- ie. Norway (very rare combination).
People can criticize capitalism all they want, but please dont do so without first acknowledging that you enjoy the countless benefits of such a system daily. Kinda like the 99% occupy protesters tweeting from their iPhones.
This is how I feel communism would end up being.
