en or em dash
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- TheeOtherJuan
I need peoples opinion on dashes on headlines. good or bad. Obviously I am not a copy writer.
We use them heavily on body copy but on headlines? Really?
- i_monk0
2m-dash all the way.
- monospaced0
Dashes/hyphens are used so incorrectly it's not even funny; most of the time a simple comma, period, or even a space would suffice. Why does marketing do this so often? I feel your pain.
- good semicolon usage therebigtrickagain
- Thanks. I take my punctuation seriously.monospaced
- AMOK0
Here is a good explanation of when to use which...and personally I think you should use these rules no matter if its in body copy or if its a headline
- +1TheeOtherJuan
- BTW, I am NOT a copywriter either! Thats why I use these types of tools:)AMOK
- boobs0
Get the writers to take out as many of them as possible, so it doesn't look like it was written by a high school girl.
- iheartfun0
Depends how you use it. But normally bad
- whatsup0
the way i use them:
dashes are supposed to link two-words together or a wo rd that splits in half on a line break.
em dashes are used to link sentences. normally a comma or period would suffice – to show an easy relation between the two. Where commas are used throughout in over various not connecting reasons.
- Wrong. Hyphens link two words together. Dashes are for running copy.monospaced
- true, but in the context of en vs emwhatsup
- i'm concluding that en dash and hyphens are the samewhatsup
- if you think an en and em dash are the same then you're an idiotmonospaced
- i was thinking en and hyphens were the same, but apparently they're differentwhatsup
- in the context of the computer keyboard, they're visually very similarwhatsup
- however you cannot get en and em mixed upwhatsup
- good boymonospaced
- gramme0
Em dashes with no space either side are the traditional approach. Some people use en dashes with space either side instead.
Sometimes in headlines it looks better to go with the latter approach. Depends on the font, though. Some em dashes are wider than others, and some en dashes are too narrow.
- gramme0
BTW, em dashes should only set apart parenthetical statements. If parentheses wouldn't make sense surrounding the phrase, then you need some other kind of punctuation.
- <monospaced
- That's why it's so annoying to see em dashes in headlines. They simply aren't phrases.monospaced
- You're right, though I was thinking more about decks than headlines per se.gramme
- scarabin0
i don't think the rules have anything to do with it being in a headline or not
- ukit0
Just use whatever - no one will care.
- lies!!!!iheartfun
- I don't like the look of that hyphen, sir.duckofrubber
- should be an em dash...foz
- monospaced0
Damnit scarabin. It's that kind of attitude that is degrading writing everywhere. People reinterpret punctuation due to pure ignorance of the rules and end up with em dashes where they do not belong, unnecessary elipses, fucking retarded uses of apostrophes, and so much more. I'm glad TheeOtherJuan started this thread because it offers a chance to correct a problem at the design level where it should never have been written by a copywriter in the first place.
- so show me something that says em-dashes aren't allowed in headlines– i've never seen that shit beforescarabin
- Your lack of understanding is shocking. It's simply a fact.monospaced
- If you want proof, look at the link that AMOK posted. It's all there.monospaced
- that link says nothing about headlines.scarabin
- in the end it depends on the size of the headline and the typeface being usedscarabin
- the goal is to avoid a giant rectangle in your headline, not to be an OCD rule naziscarabin
- gramme0
The widespread overuse of ellipses is a huge pet peeve of mine ...
- ukit0
OK mono spaced, Calm Down - this War isn't your's to fight
- now you're just pushing my buttons :Pmonospaced
- hahascarabin
- TheeOtherJuan0
Calm down boys.
I have my presentation in a few and will just mention the use of the em dash in the headline to be "too much". Since I am not a copywriter and don't have the background to go against it–I'll just take the higher road.
- You didn't need that dash. A simple comma would have sufficed.monospaced
- i_monk0
Spaces around ellipses, or just after? I think just after, but our proofer says the style is changing.
- TheeOtherJuan0
i monk, I am speaking in specific to headlines.
- whatsup0
Hyphen (-)
The hyphen is the minus key in Windows-based keyboards. This is a widely used punctuation mark. Hyphen should not be mistaken for a dash. Dash is different and has different function than a hyphen.
A hyphen is used to separate the words in a compound adjective, verb, or adverb. For instance:
The T-rex has a movement-based vision.
My blog is blogger-powered.
John’s idea was pooh-poohed.En Dash (–)
En Dash gets its name from its length. It is one ‘N’ long (En is a typographical unit that is almost as wide as 'N'). En Dash is used to express a range of values or a distance:
People of age 55–80 are more prone to hypertension.
Delhi–Sidney flight was late by three hours.Em Dash (—)
Em Dash gets its name from the width of it, which is roughly one ‘M’ long or two ‘N’ long (Em is a typographical unit twice the length of en—and almost the length of capital 'M'). The Em Dash can be typed as two En Dashes. Alternatively, in MS Word, you can type two hyphens together to get an Em Dash. The ASCII code for this is "—".
Em Dash is used to set off parenthetical elements, which are abrupt. This is different from commas separating parenthetical elements. For instance:
The tea—with cardamom and other spices—was delicious and fragrant.
Make sure you don’t use spaces around the Em Dash.
Em Dash also separates the final part of a sentence that is logically not part of the sentence (similar to the colon use in this context).
Several friends were present—Saurabh, Arun, and Smija, among them.
Though most people prefer to follow the Em Dash without spaces, some people recommend using Em dash or En Dash with spaces around.
- <that's how I use 'emWrappedInBooks
- dont forget me.. i use hyphene-pill
- gramme0
Furthermore, using em dashes with space either side is distinctly British; em dashes with no space is more or less North American; and spaced en dashes is a more contemporary approach, favored by people like Erik Spiekermann and Robert Bringhurst. Bringhurst even goes so far as to say that full-width em dashes belong to the "padded and corseted aesthetic of the Victorian Age." I wouldn't go that far, but I do agree that em dashes are more old-fashioned.
Personally, I go back and forth between close-set em dashes and open en dashes. Don't have a strong preference either way. Like I said before, it depends in part on the particular fonts being used.
- monospaced0
I guess the main reason that em dashes have no place in headlines (scarabin) is that a headline is rarely, if ever, a complex sentence in and of itself. AMOK's link doesn't mention headlines specifically, but it does state this:
"Parenthetical expressions may be set off by brackets, parentheses, em dashes, or commas. Commas should be used for the least interruption in the sentence, followed by em dashes, parentheses, and brackets for progressively greater disconnection."
Basically, if your headline includes a parenthetical expression, it's a terrible headline and probably should be reworded.
- Agreed.welded
- Not to mention that they simply don't look good in that contextmonospaced
- good response here. now going in to fight my copywriter :) (cocks 9mm)TheeOtherJuan
- nobody can tell me what is or isn't a good headline, that varies with publicationscarabin
- you're trying to say it has to do with grammar now and not punctuation at all, which is bullshitscarabin
- i was debating the punctuation itselfscarabin
- punctuation and grammar are intimately linked and it's nearly impossible to argue thatmonospaced
- duckofrubber0
I tend to shorten the em dash by around 15–20% and add a very small amount of space on either side. Not much, just enough for balance (somewhere between a hair space and thin space in InDesign).
- why not just use an en dash?monospaced
- too shortduckofrubber
- funny, because it's just about 20% shorter than the emmonospaced
- not true. it's about 50–60% shorter.duckofrubber
- Well, it does depend on the typeface. With Helvetica—as an example—it is exactly 50% smaller.duckofrubber