Coronavirus

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  • palimpsest-7

    Who was the idiot that claimed you couldn't get COVID if vaccinated?
    Respond with truth bombs only, please.

    • I honestly don't recall. CDC, WHO, Fauci, Trump?MondoMorphic
    • this is the standard of immunology. so is the knowledge that viruses mutate.pr2
    • I blame HillaryGuyFawkes
    • At least GuyFawkes is giving a straight answer. It's a simple question.palimpsest
    • Nobody claimed this except the vaccine denying moronsmonospaced
    • It's obamapango
    • I blame one nipple of the 14th dalai lama.sted
    • fucked up that's the current one. blame the: left nipple of the 13th dalai lama.sted
    • nobody said that. get out of your little bubble of hate and finger pointing.inteliboy
    • Thanks for playing.
      1st place goes to inteliboy.
      pr2 is the runner-up.
      palimpsest
    • A vaccine is used to build immunity. Everyone's body is different. Your level of immunity from the vaccine may not be the same as the person next to you.dbloc
    • Therefore you can still get it, but even partial immunity will decrease the symptoms.dbloc
    • So we agree that one would have to be an idiot to claim that you can't get COVID with the vaccine?palimpsest
    • And that pointing at vaccinated people with COVID as proof that the vaccine doesn't work is equally idiotic?palimpsest
    • i got jumped on by multiple vaccinated folks on here for posting that vaccines even reduce the chance of infection taking hold (based on UK testing data)kingsteven
    • i don't think i've heard of anyone anywhere claiming that they prevent Covid (other than the voices in pr2's head)kingsteven
    • or Hayoth even, the funny one :Dkingsteven
    • Yes, that was the point.palimpsest
    • its a democratic hoaxneverscared
    • Australia isn't real.palimpsest
    • https://birdsarentre…dbloc
  • Ramanisky21

    • "Hey guys we're here to act professional"nb
    • Laughing at a kid because his gran died.PhanLo
  • robotinc0

    Here's a truthbomb for those with a "but its only 3x more deadly than the flu" crowd

    Flu deaths in the US in 2020: ~700
    Covid deaths in the US in 2020: ~375,000

    so ~535X more deadly

    https://www.scientificamerican.c…
    https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes…

    • There's something weird about the pandemic in that it's made flu deaths drop right off. Fairer to compare against previous years - 34,000.Nairn
    • So, still ten times as bad.

      *shrugs*
      But hey, narratives.
      Nairn
    • 2017 1as a bad year in the states for some reason. 60,000 deaths.

      Still. "Buh mah narrative"
      Nairn
    • *was.
      Not sure how my finger managed to slip right over 2 and Q there.
      Nairn
    • one of more deadlier flu seasons a few years back scored 60k deaths. multiply that by 3x mortality of covid and 3x transmitability and you get what?pr2
    • but of course even simple math like this is too heady for those who love simplistic arguments like the flu deaths of 2020...pr2
    • And you wonder why people like me hold all those pro-vaxxers in such contempt. They can't even see the most basic flaw in their logic and yet...pr2
    • ...try to educate others about science. Fucking unbelivable.pr2
    • People avoiding contact, disinfecting and wearing masks curbed both the flu and covid. This is obvious.monospaced
    • If that hadn’t been done both would be worse. If more had been done fewer would have died. There is no science advocating for doing nothing at all pr2.monospaced
    • Its not comparing the same thing to use previous years numbers as society wasn't behaving in the same way. The 2020 flu numbers are way downrobotinc
    • Many millions get flu shots too. And despite those we still have flu seasons that are bad. It’s not like they are happening without any precautions.monospaced
    • .. because of the precautions like masking, wfh, etc. Thats why I used 2020 numbers.robotinc
    • mono, come on man, when did i say to do nothing??? you get sick and get symptoms = your body is fighting something = stay home.pr2
    • you don't want to "risk" getting covid, get vaccine. if you had it (as both you and me - living in NYC) did, you are protected. or as protected as we can get.pr2
    • lets stop pretending that a piece of badly fitted piece of clothing is doing much. Again, if it makes you feel better - please, wear it...pr2
    • ...but don't imposes your feelings onto me and mascaraed it for science.pr2
    • you are afraid = fine, but don't force everyone to live in the same vacuum of fear as you do.pr2
    • The Truth Hurtsutopian
    • actually getting vaccinated in addition to having had covid makes you *more* immune than if you only got covid. so you'd still benefit from the vaccine, pr2.sarahfailin
    • and while the vaccine has minute risks, actual covid is killing between 1-2% of people with diagnosed cases in the United States. so vaccine is much safer.sarahfailin
    • come on, by now you HAVE to know that mortality rate of covid is at 0.3%. who doesn't know it?pr2
    • (vs 0.1% for flu).pr2
    • Bro you are the king of the “do nothing” about coronavirus clan. That’s why you won’t shut up about the death rates and only criticize the measures takenmonospaced
    • Constantly repeating that it’s no big deal, it doesn’t kill very many people, we should not be afraid, blah blah. That is the do nothing nonsense.monospaced
    • Are you vaccinated?monospaced
    • mono is 100% correct, pr2 is 100% on crack.
      the numbers don't lie. if we had 60k deaths on a normal year with the flu and only 700
      _niko
    • with lockdowns, mask wearing, social distancing etc, then without those measures, covid would have killed millions._niko
    • the reason why i don't shut up about the death rates is because if at the beginning of this pandemic we were told: there is this virus that has 3x mortality...pr2
    • ...of flu, noone would give rat's ass. We all would get it (as you, me and almost every New Yorkerd did), some people would die, most would just bitch...pr2
    • ...about a really "bad flu" and we would move on with our lives. But because we were scared shitless by profoundly wrong math models...pr2
    • ...we scramble trying to undo our psychological damage, desperately looking for a pseudo-solution such as vaccine for people who already had the virus...pr2
    • ...that barely even works against new variants.pr2
    • niko, i won't even bother trying to show you how your reasoning is deeply flawed. I'll let the hamster in your head spin your wheels for you to figure it out.pr2
    • pr2, you ever see that episode of the twilight zone where the guy wakes up and he's the same but everyone else is different? that's you._niko
    • You're right and everyone else is wrong.
      https://ilarge.lisim…
      _niko
    • lol ok maybe my analogy doesn't make sense but what a series. and what strange times we're living in._niko
    • Hey fucktard. I didn’t get covid. Nobody in my family did. Many New Yorkers also did the right thing and didn’t get it. Because we wore masks.monospaced
    • And only morally fucked assholes would be okay wi th doing NOTHING about this and call tens of thousands dying unnecessarily ON TOP OF FLU “acceptable”monospaced
    • And only scared, science denying idiot SHEEP think the psych damage of masks is worse. Seriously idiotic.monospaced
    • "multiply that by 3x mortality of covid and 3x transmitability and you get what?" I genuinely don't get your point here. Sounds like you're making ours?Nairn
    • He acts like the flu isn’t a problem also. Ignoring the reality that a huge population vaccinated against it every year and has for a long timemonospaced
    • If you have the flu you also stay home, try not to spread it, and curse at every stupid fuck who refuses to.monospaced
    • My only point was pr2s numbers are wrong.robotinc
    • yes, mono you didn't get the covid and yet tens of thousands of New Yorkers died from it... at 0.3% mortality, who do you think were the ones...pr2
    • ...who got it and lived? Just do the simple math, bro.pr2
    • pr2 you're so smart, why aren't you working in a lab or medical research facility!? you know so much!inteliboy
    • robo, you still don't get that one doesn't compare apples to oranges, do you? last years flu mortality has NOTHING to do with how many people die of flu normalypr2
    • thats part of my point. You keep talking about how masks/distancing don't work, yet here the data shows another story.robotinc
    • so with all those efforts there were still ~700 flu deaths compared to 375,000 covid deaths.robotinc
  • utopian1

  • sarahfailin-2


    source: Johns Hopkins University https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data…

    You can get this same figure yourself with other publically available information.
    take the total US death count: 653,000
    divide by the total confirmed cases: 40,600,000
    =
    1.6%

    • Just a flu you’re all overreacting. I’ve taken my horse meds, pointed my asshole towards the sun and prayed to baby Jesus so I’m protected._niko
    • I'm down with the asshole tanning. Works wonders!!! Amen.AQUTE
    • Ivermectin is a miracle drug! It won the NOBLE PRIZEnb
    • now Einstein, look up the ratio of confirmed cases to unconfirmed cases. Do the same math and see what the = tells you.pr2
    • what is an "unconfirmed case?" And why try to insult me? I'm being respectful here... Maybe post your explanation?sarahfailin
    • it's just the way pr2 speaks. condescending arrogant know-it-all asshole.inteliboy
    • THE TRUTH HURTSutopian
    • If you take the 80% of the deaths are in their 80's the mortality rate is: 0.32 %. Then add underlying health issues like diabetes.rootlock
    • ok sarah, indeed i shouldn't insult you. i apologize. basically those are confirmed cases. they represent around 20% of all cases.pr2
    • if mortality was at 1.6% we all would be shitting our pants, but the real mortality is closer to around 0.3%. which is 3x that of flu.pr2
    • Fuck em let em all die...most of them old farts only had a few years left live anyway. And the young whippersnappers that are dying have inferior DNA.utopian
    • utopian, how about you, carrying so much about others, will donate your booster shot so people of 3rd world country can get vaccinated too?pr2
    • Woah Mexico :(OBBTKN
    • dude, then by your logic the flu is 20% of confirmed cases as well, so covid is still many factors higher like 300x worse ( my math sucks but you get my point)_niko
    • niko, i have no clue what u are talking about.pr2
    • I have shat my pantsnb
    • pr2 when you say the ACTUAL number of covid cases is WAY higher and we're only aware of 20% then why is the flu any different? ie only aware of 20% of flu cases_niko
  • AQUTE-4

  • MrT-5
  • rootlock2

    According to the National Institutes of Health, obesity and overweight together are the second leading cause of preventable death in the United States, close behind tobacco use (3). An estimated 300,000 deaths per year are due to the obesity epidemic (57).

  • Ramanisky2-2

    Vax Mandate, it’s about fucking time.

  • GuyFawkes5

  • rootlock4

    Nobody can argue that old age and overall bad health contributes to the mortality rate which the media skews into fear mongering.

    In Canada in 18 months 1500 people under 60 died. This is pre vaccine. That is less than motor vehicle deaths.

    3 things are going on:

    1. The ICU are getting over run because health care budgets are shit. No beds?
    2. Every privileged Canadian gets Covid and thinks their gonna die and makes sure they are under 24 care because the media makes it out to be the black plague.
    3. The overall public is incredibly unhealthy from diet, stress and not going outside because of their little device.

    According to the Canadian Diabetes Association, 80 per cent of people with diabetes will die as a result of heart disease or stroke, and diabetes is a contributing factor in the death of about 41,500 Canadians each year.

    So as a healthy person taking the vaccine you are essentially subsidizing the health care system.

    It boggles my mind that they won't let people in low risk zones not take the vaccine.

    Wear a mask, do a push up, get a booster shot if you travel, high touch zones or high risk.

    Big Pharma is doing what Big Pharma does. Solve your health problems with a pill that PFIZER alone will make trillions off of.

    How the hell these big pharma can trade on the stock market is beyond me. I've seen so much unethical shady shit on the c-level working in the Airline industry I can't see this being much different.

    My favourite part are the ads on all the News Covid articles. Learn all about how the Delta can kill you after this short ad from Mountain Dew.

    • Big pharma doesn’t pay the healthcare system salaries.monospaced
    • Patient doesn’t dictate the level of care they receive. Whatever you’re doing here isn’t working out.monospaced
    • # if ICU beds isn’t based on budget, or lack of, but instead the demand determined that. The shit part are that unvaccinated are clogging themmonospaced
    • unvaccinated are clogging them up. Of course they are look at their health demographic.rootlock
    • what?monospaced
    • That directly negates your entire #2 point.monospaced
  • jonny_quest_lives-1

  • neverscared-2

    TikTok Cult Leader Pivots to Preaching Anti-Vax Conspiracy Theories
    Unicult founder Unicole Unicron is also offering followers religious exceptions from the Covid vaccine

    https://www.rollingstone.com/cul…

    “Today’s sermon is going to be on Unitopian Anarchy and Autonomy,” Unicole Unicron says in the opening of a sermon on YouTube. Clad in an ethereal white veil, against a background of dizzying black-and-white swirls, the leader of the self-described cult Unicult proceeds to spends the next 51 minutes detailing thoughts on the Covid-19 vaccine and why the cult’s leader is not encouraging followers to get the vaccine.

  • neverscared0

    now here is a role model

    Denmark is first in EU to lift all coronavirus restrictions
    High levels of trust in society partly explain the country’s successful vaccine rollout.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/…

    • and to think if we were still in the EU we could've been first lolfadein11
    • It's your distrust of the other that got you out of the EU.palimpsest
    • embarrising for all the other countries... while the move ahead we have to deal with idiots enjoying horse dewormers.. level of idiocy is morbid.neverscared
    • speak for yourself palfadein11
  • ApeRobot4

    • idiots all 3 of them.neverscared
    • But CNN.palimpsest
    • there´s denmark data and these guys still try to push the other slower narratives to push fru the crisis. .... its flipping reckless !neverscared
    • They make some great points.Brabo_Brabo
    • ...
      https://memegenerato…
      palimpsest
    • Especially the stuff about Fauci.Brabo_Brabo
    • Keebler Elf Fauci.Brabo_Brabo
    • ok bobo..... if they would have any decency they would advocate the vaccine ..and get out of the crisis ..asap... but no they have to stir shit up for moreneverscared
    • people dying and suffering.... just to dumb for common sense.neverscared
    • in many regions, delta variant makes up 2/3 of the infections and the vaccine offers almost no protection against delta - you know, science tells us that.pr2
    • saying that the doctors are a bunch of whinerpuss because they are not prescribing invermectim is as evil !neverscared
    • one falsehood ("vaccinate all for protection") is repeated by the status quo and the gov't, the other falsehood by a guy on the internet.pr2
    • which one has more resonance? thus you know which one is more evil.pr2
    • The earth is a sphere is repeated by the status quo, the earth is flat less so.
      Which one has more resonance? thus you know which one is more evil.
      palimpsest
    • I guess you never heard that Galileo's observations or Einsteins theories were ridiculed by the status quo early on?pr2
    • This is why we should never trust the status quo. We're on the same page.palimpsest
    • @Pr2 a lot of the people I know who doubt covid and the vaccine also think the earth is flat and we're trapped in a dome.
      I can send you links.
      PhanLo
    • per "the vaccine offers almost no protection against delta - you know, science tells us that" again the science doesn't agreerobotinc
    • https://www.nature.c…

      affective, but wanes over time
      robotinc
    • robo, at 6 months after the jab the vax offers almost no protection.pr2
    • Phan, in my life, most anti-vaxers are university grads working high level jobs, some doctors and scientist. Most share their views only privately.pr2
    • sure .. the jab doesnt work thats why denmark is lifting all the restrictions because 80% are jabbed ...neverscared
    • https://www.politico… jesus how many dumb fits in one head..neverscared
  • sarahfailin-5

    The CDC estimates that 1 in 4.2 COVID–19 infections were reported. They estimate 120.2 million people were infected, and 767,000 died.

    Of course while there are unreported cases, there are unreported deaths as well. In this case, 114,000 estimated unreported deaths from COVID.

    All this implies a death rate of 0.6%, about a third of the reported death rate. So pr2 has a point that the death rate is maybe exaggerated.

    However, the proof is in the pudding, because 653,000+ Americans have been *reported* dead, and still more have died and been unreported, or died due to lack of available care. Obviously the disease is ripping through the world, and and is a serious danger to us all.

    The contagiousness of the disease means that eventually *everyone* will eventually contract it unless measures are taken to stop it. If that death rate remains the same, should we be comfortable with .6% of the popuatlion, or 1 out of every 166 dying for a preventable cause?

    • https://www.cdc.gov/…sarahfailin
    • meta-analysis bring the death rate to around 0.3%. this decreases even further if you categories those deaths by age (0-45 has almost no chance of dying.)pr2
    • why do you still argue about death rates? or any numbers...you can't take a time machine and go back in time. move on.uan
    • this is NOT meant to be interpreted "Let the grandma die" but rather lets deepen the conversation how we ACTUALLY should deal with the problem.pr2
    • my 6 year old entering kindergarten is forced to wear a mask all day long. like most kids, he salivated a lot, so the mask gets damp withing 15 minutes.pr2
    • You mean we should talk about how YOU want to solve the problem. Lulznb
    • dampness is breathing ground for pathogens. like most kids he either will never get covid or it will be very mild.pr2
    • his grandparents live hours away so he'll never give them covid, so why THE FUCK is my kids exposed to MORE danger because of stupid mask requirement?pr2
    • this is as much about your grandma as about my kid.pr2
    • forced? yeah, sure. read it again :-)uan
    • and don't translate it into your words.uan
    • Your kids aren’t exposed to more danger wearing a mask. That’s total bullshit.monospaced
    • mono strikes again with his uneducated fantasies.pr2
    • I hear the catching Covid is just like the sniffles, no need to worry.utopian
    • and just to use the numbers from the CDC link: 0-64yo = 92mil infected and 151k deaths. so the death rate is actually closer to 0.17pr2
    • let me repeat it again: death rate in0-64yo is 0.17%.pr2
    • this translates that you have MUCH higher chance of dying from gun assault, car crash, drowning or even fire.pr2
    • ok, dying from fire is on par with dying from covid.pr2
    • Why is your kid wearing a mask at nursery? Kids don't have to wear masks here.PhanLo
    • Phan, in US kids enter the school earlier than in Europe (European model is better here) and k-grade is considered "school" so they have to mask up.pr2
    • pr2, including children and excluding seniors is obviously going to give you a lower death rate.sarahfailin
    • i presume many here are under 65yo. So YOUR chance of dying is 0.17%. Your older parents or grandparents are at much higher risk (around 6%).pr2
    • and this is where the conversation should go: how to we help the older population deal with this virus without doing damage to the next generations.pr2
    • If we didn’t have to wear seatbelts or follow traffic laws or make cars to regulations or have driving tests and tickets then driving would kill more too!monospaced
    • Nursery and primary school kids don't have to wear masks here, so up to 12 year old. My son wears a mask at high school, he's 14, but I think that stops soon.PhanLo
    • Why do these idiots keep comparing the death rate to vehicle accidents, which are the highest regulated industry on the planet and cause countless deaths daily?monospaced
    • Here's one idea. Have the younger generation wear a mask in school to try and help limit the spread of Covid to the older generation.bogue
    • Fact is, we are terrified of car accidents. That’s why it is so regulated. That’s why we have rules for everyone’s safety. Holy shit some people are dense.monospaced
    • covid is 15x less likely to kill you than cars crash. go vive in fear on your own private island mono.pr2
    • and meanwhile we can drive cars again. still with seatbelts though.
      but we don't smoke in the cars when we put kids inside. those nazi rules from the 90ies.
      uan
    • lol uan exactly_niko
  • sarahfailin-3

    I'd repeat the question pr2:

    "Should we be comfortable with .6% of the population, or 1 out of every 166 dying for a preventable cause?"

    You seem to be arguing that it's actually less than that, but the question still stands. Shall we just let those people die? Or shall we take some actions to try to prevent it?

    • i'll repeat again. 0-64yo - your chance of dying is 0.17%.pr2
    • with or without treatment?uan
    • it's the older generation (65+) who are at risk with death rate at 6%.pr2
    • or precautions?uan
    • so the conversation should NOT start with a very broad questions about people dying but how to help the older folks.pr2
    • or people, as they're otherwise known.Fax_Benson
    • u can generalize all you want if this helps you feeling safe.pr2
    • my 40yo friend getting covid = here is so chicken soup; my 75yo mother getting covid = i shit my pants in fear of her dying.pr2
    • better hope your 40yo friend has his magic soup before he visits your mother.Fax_Benson
    • love how pr2's narrative has slowly diluted over timefadein11
    • Well, older folks ARE people. Do you think we shouldn't try to keep them from dying? Or you're less willing to make efforts for them, because they're old?sarahfailin
    • also, 0.17% of 328,000,000 Americans is only 557,600 people, a number we've already surpassed in reported deaths. so clearly the rate is higher than that.sarahfailin
    • sarah, r u questioning the CDC link you posted?pr2
    • No, I'm defending it. Are you saying that we should let the elderly die?sarahfailin
    • who is saying that which you claim??? there is a world of difference between 0.17% and 6% and using the same methods of thinking to both numbers is ridiculous.pr2
    • yup I think so as long as it's business as usual for us 40 year olds fuck the geezers.
      600,000 people dead is peanuts I guess.
      _niko
    • and what an overreaction for AIDS, only 35000 die each year in the US and they're mostly gays that's like 0.0001% of the population, what a waste of resources_niko
    • also, and this grinds my gears, only 480 000 Americans die each year from smoking including second hand smoke, and they have the audacity to ban it in schools_niko
    • and on flights and in restaurants and in busses? what is this the Soviet Union? that's only 0.01% of the population why are we overreacting?_niko
    • and I can't believe they won't sell cigarettes to my 10 year old or let him smoke in class. Wake up sheeple. Numbers don't lie!!!!!_niko
    • seriously most people dying of lung cancer are elderly, 65+ this doesn't effect young people, I've know thousands of teens that smoke and not one has died_niko
    • https://www.youtube.…GuyFawkes
    • niko, you went down the rabbit hole so deep noone can pull you out. you compare numbers and associations that don't belong to one another.pr2
    • with this sort of logic you can prove to yourself anything.pr2
    • That’s how everyone views you, pr2. You’re the only one who doesn’t see it and you keep doubling down.monospaced
    • _niko, “survival rate” is a metric used to determine a person's expected outcome, e/g a cancer victim's survival rate is...ptrdo
    • _niko, your use of gross % is incorrect. Individual prospects of a bad outcome from COVID cannot be glumped together. Age is only one of many factors.ptrdo
    • _niko, a suggestion: Either learn some fundamental statistics or stop talking.ptrdo
    • @sarahfailin Shut the fuck, you're a boring faggoti_was
    • *shuts the fuck* thanks man it was getting drafty inside that fucksarahfailin
    • you don't die from covid just like you don't die from cigarettes. You die from diseases CAUSED by covid or Cigarettes. Learn some fundamentals or stop talking_niko
    • lol nice burn btw._niko
    • and please don't take me seriously, I'm just trolling pr2 and his absurdity._niko
    • The fall from a cliff don't kill people. The impact does!pango
    • Murderers don't kill people! Their weapons do!pango
    • Wait no... Their weapons don't kill people. The damaged organs and bleeding out do!pango
    • Covid doesn't kill you. The ignorance does.utopian
    • Heart disease doesn't kill anyone, but the hypoxia and organ failure it triggers sure do. “Natural causes” is shorthand for too many reasons to lost.ptrdo
    • I’ve run out of popcorn.Chimp
  • nb-1

  • sarahfailin0

    "who is saying that which you claim??? there is a world of difference between 0.17% and 6% and using the same methods of thinking to both numbers is ridiculous." -pr2

    So you do agree that vulnerable populations such as the elderly should be protected from COVID, and that measures should be taken to keep them from dying needlessly. What measures do you think are appropriate to prevent hundreds of thousands more people from dying?

    If we do not change something, COVID will keep spreading and 0.17% of people ages 0-64 and **0.6%** of people of all ages will continue dying. Perhaps more as more deadly variants arise.

    • all of use will get covid one way or another so its imperative to know if you had it already or were just vaxed.pr2
    • if you had it - old or young - you are protected and though can get covid again, you won't spread it like some covid-virgin.pr2
    • if you were just vaxed, it will help you the first 6 months then you are a virgin against new variants.pr2
    • some areas were hit really hard before anyone know wtf is going on and have large swatches of population that already had covid.pr2
    • those areas are "safe zones" where you are unlikely to get covid but many other areas (especially those that heavily depended on lockdowns) WILL get fucked.pr2
    • at this moment, the best answer is for the elderly to be vigilant and to study ways how to cure this disease as it's no joke for the elderly.pr2
    • the answer is NOT to shut down whole countries or regions.pr2
    • 'the elderly gotta watch out for themselves' is what I'm taking away from what you're sayingsarahfailin
    • You are being particularly obtuse and uncharitable if that is what you take away from what pr2 said.Morning_star
    • well what measures shall we take to protect the vulnerable? "Everyone will get COVID" is what we're trying to avoid.sarahfailin
    • Covid isn’t going away. The front line protection is the vaccines. Secondary options include social distancing and masks. All three of these plus ...Morning_star
    • ...boosters when available will protect the most vulnerable as they have been up to now. Advances in prophalactic drug protection and improved vaccines will...Morning_star
    • ...be available for those who want them. Whilst crass ‘everyone will get COVID’ is probably accurate.Morning_star
  • Ramanisky212