damn liberals!
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- abizzyman0
lowimpakt...
I think you definetly help those people.
I don't believe in the whole 'survival of the fittest' thing either.
Disabled people or people incapable of taking care of themselves need help... that's a natural human desire (at least I think it is) - to love and care for your fellow man.
But I don't think we're owed a damn thing if we're capable of taking care of ourselves.
I like programs like America's student loan approach - Everyone can get their hands on that type of 'help' (yes everyone, if you're an American citizen, can get your hands on some financial aid for school)... but, you're expected to pay it back - some loans require you pay a service charge - some don't.
I don't mind helping someone financially - as long as it's not squandered and that person shows appreciation.
People who think they're 'owed' need to get their head checked. Just because you're in a crappy situation doesn't mean you can't try to dig your way out (if you're capable of it).
- abizzyman0
MX_OnD - if you need five bucks for lunch... I'll hook you up.
and we have the same background (and same height).
- rabattski0
kuz: interesting that you come up with keynes. good point and it should work but the thing is keynes also states that the government should budget / earn taxes in an anti-cyclic way which *no* government in this world does (basicly pro-cyclic). so they keep to one part of keynes while ignoring the anti-cyclic part which equals in a not working system (sorry for the bad english, not a native english speaking twat). oh, and anti-cyclic as in raise the budget / decrease taxes in a low economy and lower the budget / increase taxes in a high economy.
- Ell0
lib·er·al·ism n
1. a belief in tolerance and gradual reform in moral, religious, or political matters
2. a political ideology with its beginnings in western Europe that rejects authoritarian government and defends freedom of speech, association, and religion, and the right to own property
3. an economic theory in favor of free competition and minimal government regulation
- fingercore0
Here's my question...
Why do conservatives have a huge problem with the unconsequential amount of money being taken out of their paychecks for welfare, but have no problem with the handouts and taxbreaks given to big businesses?
Also, if the American dream is soo true, why don't I know any millionaires? Perhaps I run in the wrong circles, but it would seem by now that anyone with half a brain would've worked hard enough to make a substantial living?
I guess the poor love being poor. I mean, if they had money, what the hell would they cry about?!?
Liberals are whiny, don't get me wrong. But no where near as bad as the conservatives who think everything is being taken away from them.
- Kuz0
Yes rabattski. I also think that people these days are so anti-welfare because we're in the longest period of sustained economic growth in history (well, modern history anyway, dont know about ancient times) - so people dont see the economy as being cyclical anymore - depression/growth/depression/gro... - so they dont' understand that when a depression comes, a "welfare system" (if u wanna call it that), is vital to stop the economy from completely collapsing.
I just wonder where all this Reaganinsm/Thatcherism is gonna take us - are we in for a catastrophe?
- Kuz0
fuckin dropped it fingercore
The rich get richer. It's like government exists to help them with their tax breaks and handouts - and then they just sit back and pray for the "trickle" effect.
- rabattski0
well in my humble opinion the keynes model is the best model that currently excists but it has a catch22 to it. the government need money in order to spend money. normally within keynes they get the money during a high economy (decrease budget / increase taxes) and spend that during a low economy which improves production and economic growth by still having a high enough level of consuming (by lowering taxes). however if there isn't any money to spend than a low economy will sustain longer (but it'll always go up someday naturally) + politicians are people too, they are very afraid to spend money anti-cyclic because it might happen that they run out of it etc. a keynes model only works long term. it doesn't work within a year. and every new elected government influences the effect of the keynes model. another side effect is that the people shouldn't stop consuming during a low economy which will make it only worse. so the keynes model should be integrated in the entire society.
- lowimpakt0
I don't follow the 'society owes me' logic but the 'what the society' owes itself one. You will always have people who don't/can't work but issues such as white collar crime and corporate tax breaks etc. have a far worse impact on a far greater number of people.
Kuz, have you ay thoughts on the Basic Income model. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas…
- Kuz0
nicely summed up rabbatski.
- carver0
i didn't get to where i am today by sitting on my occassionally haemohroid prone arse! i buckled down, learned a trade, graduated in risk management, i work fuckin' hard and i play hard. iam in charge of TEN people and hiring again... Only now am i reaping the rewards and having the pick of the ripe fanny due to my wealth and personality.so when some little homo starts moaning about corporate tax breaks, basic income models and the price of fucking thongs i'll lamp the cunt!!
- Kuz0
wow, i never heard of the Guaranteed Income system before. Sounds very interesting... Sorry, i dont have much to say on it cos i haven't really come across it before.
But i go along with what u say about the welfare system is there for the benefit of society not individuals as such.
- rabattski0
well on paper the universal basic income model works but it is based on the fact that people want to work. however if not working equals a minimum income then the result would be a huge pool of people not working because: why work? which results in a negative economic growth / abused syste, / general stress etc. so nice idea but scratch that.
- Ell0
anyone read 'Dude, Where's my Country?' ?
- fingercore0
The real problem with liberals:
Honestly believe that the taxes of unbridled capitalism are the anwers to society's woes. The fact is, there is something fundamentally wrong with a system which equates my choice of purchasing either an Apple or a Dell with democracy.
- jpea0
all good points, but in the original post i didn't really mean that i'm expecting handouts of any type with no return on the investment, but rather wanted to just say that in order to succeed you have to have certain tools at your disposal.
in general, the wealthy already have these tools (the drive and belief that there is opportunity and to strive for it is a major one). but usually in the 'hood, the people don't have these tools. they were never brought up to think that they can succeed, thus it's a downhill slide unless someone/something tells them otherwise.my roommates' attitude was just a 'fu*k 'em" attitude, which really doesn't help anyone except his own conscience. just because he has the tools to be able to make whatever he wants of life doesn't mean that everyone else had those same tools (not that they can't rise above that, it's just he's blind to the fact that they're not going down the easy road he went down in their quest for a better life)
- JazX0
ignore him
- lowimpakt0
I'm presuming by 'tools' you mean access to eductaion, stable home/neighbourhood environment, peers and parent who have gone through the education system etc.
There is also something to be said for the sociological implication sof growing up in a poor environment in relation to perceptions of opportunity etc.
- lost0
Not all wealthy people had the tools. Some actually start at the bottom and work their way up.
I had to work my ass off to get where Im at today.
This is one position I think the liberals are wrong.
I worked at a gas station. Now Im a Art Director. Its what you make of your life.
No one is equal and no one ever will be equal.
I hand it to all the people in the world that work their asses off to support their families. They deserve aid. Not the f*&kers that sit at home on their asses doing drugs and neglecting their children.
Think about that poor single mom who works three jobs so that her kids can have a good life.
THAT IS HONOR.
NOT A F-ING HAND ME DOWN
- lost0
I am for welfare to work programs.
That is fair.