Creationist Lies
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- Mimio0
That part didn't really seem off-topic to me. People still get something out of the believing in dogma I guess, and are willing to interpret everything they experience through it.
- TheTick0
I think we descended from apes. And I happen to think every human life is goddamn precious. i don't need jesus for that...and for you discipler to make exactly the same type of assumptions on where someone stands ethically and morally on other social issues (i.e. abortion - human ->apes = OK to destroy unborn??) beacuse of their stand on evolution makes my point.
ID is part and parcel of a whole world view itself. I freely admit I believe in the validity of scientific inquiry, Enlightenment ideals and I have an agenda to support. But I'm open minded. I even have zero problem with accepting the idea that a creator could be behind the greatness of the universe.But that's a matter of faith - not science. I have room in my world for chritianity in mine. You don't have room for science in yours without co-opting it.
See I knew there was an agenda there...
- yarsrevenge0
I agree with tick, a lot of the proponents of ID in schools are also anti-abortion types.
mrdobolina
(Jun 13 05, 09:19)
-------------------------------Easy there.. that was out of line and juvenile.
- TheTick0
Discipler - you keep going to CREATIONIST websites. Please find corresponding data in peer reviewed material that is INDEPENDENTLY funded by someone that isn't an ID proponent.
It's like saying "Look, see there is no global warming. This site funded by Exxon Mobil says so! See they're REAl scientists too..."
If you don't see that, man...
- JazX0
Well, I was going to leave but then you had to make me look at that page and their reference to basaltic/andesitic lava formations. Generally, the lithology of 'Basalt' and 'Andesites' include mucho Potassium and Argon, sufficient enough to do dating.
I'm not trying to start fights here, but, yes, if in fact there are flaws with standard dating mechanisms, then it's very hard to prove accepted geologic dating scales.
"Therefore, these considerations call into question all K-Ar "dating", whether "model ages" or "isochron ages", and all 40Ar/39Ar "dating", as well as "fossil dating" that has been calibrated against K-Ar "dates". Although seemingly insignificant in themselves, the anomalous K-Ar "model ages" for these recent andesite flows at Mt Ngauruhoe, New Zealand, lead to deeper questions. Why is there excess40Ar* in these rocks? From where did it come? Answers to these questions in turn point to significant implications that totally undermine such radioactive "dating" and that are instead compatible with a young Earth." - is a very bold statement, but yes in this instance it does bring up some questions as to whether or not K-Ar dating is valid.
- discipler0
Tick, again, science and the Bible are far from mutually exclusive, in my (and countless other intelligent people's) opinions. The Bible provides an account of the universe's origin and presents it as factual history. Beating a dead horse. I'll have to just agree to disagree at this point.
- TheTick0
Let's be clear that the point we disagree on is , as you stated:
"The Bible provides an account of the universe's origin and presents it as factual history."
I totaly disagree with this, and this idea has no place in a science classroom.
Lots of things flow form that disagreement Discipler...You know what one iota did in the history of the church...
I like the little "intelligent people" dig as well. Ever the rhetorical master...
- Mimio0
Like I've said many times before Discipler, The earth is not the first thing to exist in the universe, this is called science FACT. It's a matter of superstition beyond that, not science.
- discipler0
Tick, you do not find creationist papers published in scientific periodicals because of the very bias and prejuidice we've been discussing! There is discrimination.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/…
You will, however, find papers by I.D. proponents in the periodicals. Just do a search on Professor Behe, alone.
- discipler0
Negative, Tick. I can guarantee you I've studied more history of the church than you realize. Specifically, early church history.
- jakeyj0
whoa this thread exploded whilst i was gone.
jaz - how the heck did you end up in design? seems like some other people too studied subjects other than design in college...
- JazX0
So that's what I think discipler and, yes, I've read things like this before, therefore I think there might be an issue with K-Ar dating. Hence, the Geologic Time Scale does seem a bit shakey.
Let's not confuse social issues with scientific observations.
*drinks a beaker full of lit whiskey to relax
- TheTick0
Discipler you wouldn't understand science if it fell off of a building and hit you on the head.
Thw whole point of science is to investigate nature. Science works on theories. The enqirires are never proven, they are and can only be proven wrong. A scientist would be willing to overturn long held ideas if their was enough evidence that it did not accurately model the observable world.
An ID could never by definition except the idea that God could be disproven as a source for everything, or accept the fact that the bible would be disproved by evidence. To do so would underlie the argument for it.
ID is belief in a preset set of conditions - hence faith - and not science.
The fact that you can quote scientific jargon nonstop doesn't mean you understand the very fundamental idea that underlies it.
- JazX0
whoa this thread exploded whilst i was gone.
jaz - how the heck did you end up in design? seems like some other people too studied subjects other than design in college...
jakeyj
(Jun 13 05, 10:05)Always creative, went to art school as a kid. Got caught up in having to do science/math-based homework as an undergrad on Macs like OS 3. Started to learn HTML in 1993 on those same Macs.
Blah blah blah along the way.
Too difficult to get your Masters in Science. Lot of crazy stuff you have to do and you need it to work in Oil Exploration. Someday maybe though, because I see the big picture well and had good teachers. Actually. studied under a colleague of Stephen Jay Gould, a VERY well respected Evolutionary Paleontologist. Just do a search on him, he wrote some crazy ground breaking stuff in terms of Evolutionary thought. Dudn't mean he was exactly right.
I once did some Geologic Exploration in Namibia in the //Ugab Desert. Looking for Pegmatite deposits that contain a chemically inert element/metal called Tantallite. Used by many countries to build bomb/missle/satellite casings. Very high melting point, can be sent into space.
- TheTick0
Discipler I wasn't questioning your understanding of early church history, but quite frankly I am now. I said "you understand what one iota did to the church..."
And you missed that? You MISSED that reference?
Do you know what the "one iota" was? It's only the most decisive argument in all of early organized christianity and you thought I was saying you didn't know church history? I was refering to what I expected you to know about early church history and it went right over your head?
- TheTick0
Hey Discipler here's a hint:
Council of Nicaea; homoiousios and homoousios.
One iota reference. Basic knowledge of church history..
- discipler0
Tick, I'm well aware of the scientific method and the testable, observable and falsifiable requirements of a scientific theory. Just like macroevolution, the notion that an intelligent designer created life cannot be falsified in a lab... of course it can't. But you are making the presupposition that which can only account for physical biological processes is the be-all, end-all.
ID looks at the complexity of things like the cell, DNA, chemistry of vision, bacteria flagellum, irreducible complexity and concludes that it is impossible for it all to have happened via natural accidents. It's that simple.
So, I guess you're not getting I.D. even though it's stepping up in your face and slapping you with a herring.
- discipler0
Familiar with Nicae in particular, primarily because of it's theological implications, my friend. Clever iota reference. There, happy? ;)
- jakeyj0
holy crap jaz. that's great! everybody's got a great story/ background as far as I'm concerned.
so how do you and your alter ego know so much of the bible.
- discipler0
On a somewhat related note, if you have about 5 minutes to spare, this video interview with Professor of Biochemistry, Dr. Michael Behe is fascinating (click the numbers for his video responses to the questions):
http://id-www.ucsb.edu/detche/vi…
*he makes no claim to be a Christian, but thru science, is now an theist.