sam harris
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- flagellum0
prove that a ghost exists, it never has been done. That is supernatural, no?
mrdobolina
(Oct 5 06, 08:35)"Prove" they don't.
- flagellum0
Flagellum, it would only have to be something that couldn't be explained in part or in whole by natural means. Something that clearly contradicts a natural cause. Clearly such a thing doesn't exist, it just belies in ignorance.
Mimio
(Oct 5 06, 08:35I'm perfectly willing to go with natural causation where and when it is clearly demonstrated by the evidence.
- Mimio0
The burden of proof doesn't exist for the skeptic, only the one making the claim.
- woodyBatts0
There's enough room in this world for science and faith.
Faith is belief w/o proof, why must we scientifically explain anything about faith?
Jeesh.
- mrdobolina0
because religion crosses over into politics, woody.
a large percentage of american citizens think god wanted george bush to be president.
if religion had no bearing on politics, I would never talk about it.
- Mimio0
If something can be demonstrated it is natural. That's basically my point, there's no reason to believe anything else.
- flagellum0
Mimio: it all depends on how you define "skeptic". There are people like Shermer who make absolute atheistic claims. So, the burden would also lie with him to demonstrate that there are no supernatural forces at work. And to demonstrate how "natural" forces produced matter and energy from nothing.
- mrdobolina0
because then it would be harmless.
- TheBlueOne0
Look, I happen to not believe in a diety that has an interest in my personal welfare. I happen also not to believe in a diety who gives one whit for the human race. I will leave wiggle room for some sort of huge impersonal "life force" in the universe.
So I'm on the athiest, agnostic side of things. I haven't really encountered too many organized athiests willing to kill others for actually believing in an all powerful diety.
(And no, communism doesn't count, bc their diety was the State.)
However, alot of people who hold the opinion of a diety that cares about their tiny little lives are more than willing to kill me in the name of self-same diety, even when all of them will proclaim loudly that their diety doesn't really want them to kill anyone.
Kinda makes you wonder who really has the morals..
- flagellum0
Mimio: i agree with that.
- flagellum0
blueOne: Sounds like you are a classic Deist. Which is a more honest position than atheism. I can applaud you for that.
There are fringe groups of people who commit evil in the name of all sorts of belief systems. There have been plenty of evil acts committed under the banner of Atheistic Materialism. After all... we're just higher bacteria. ;)
- Mimio0
No flagellum an Athesit says there's no such thing as supernatural forces at work in a demonstratably natural world. Evidence might sway an Atheist but there isn't any available.
- flagellum0
Mimio: There is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that something beyond "nature" as you and I definte it, is at work. And this evidence has converted many an Atheist. Just check with Anthony Flew, one of the most recognized atheists who recently switched to theism because of "American Intelligent Design Theorists" to use his own words.
Evidence like:
The Big Bang
The information Content of Life (The Cell, DNA, etc...)
The immaterial consciousness of humansthe list goes on.
- TheBlueOne0
Point taken, Flaggelulum, point taken.
And let me say that I diagree with your views re: Christianity alot of times, and we can disagree on the existence and nature of god, and the particular thought/gut processes that lead us to our respective positions, but I have come to respect you and your earnestness and honesty with your beliefs.
- mrdobolina0
he Big Bang
The information Content of Life (The Cell, DNA, etc...)
The immaterial consciousness of humansthe list goes on.
flagellum
(Oct 5 06, 08:57)I fail to see how these things point to god.
- flagellum0
Thanks, I appreciate that. I wish we could discuss these things more without being ugly to each other.
- mrdobolina0
flagellum, does god really hate fags?
- TheBlueOne0
The Big Bang
The information Content of Life (The Cell, DNA, etc...)
The immaterial consciousness of humansthe list goes on.
flagellum
(Oct 5 06, 08:57)
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See, funnily enough for me, that stuff, combined with my reading of Chaos theory and COmplexity science only leads me to believe that that "spirituality" is inherent in how matter organizes itself on different levels, and is merely how we humans, with our particular geneticly tuned senses perceive it.Sure, it gives you the spiritual shivers, is a pretty sublime thing, but for me personally it points to spirituality coming form matter itself in it's self-organization, and not from some sort of outside diety.
- woodyBatts0
+1 Blue one
I like your style.
I hear you dobs, I just feel it's okay if you think God wanted to Bush to be president, but I don't think it's cool if you think thocracy or psuedo-theocracy is acceptable.
- flagellum0
mrdobolina:
Those things don't necessarily point to the Christian God. I was citing them as evidence of some sort of powerful designing intelligence which doesn't fit into our understanding of "nature".
And homosexuals don't like being called "fags" as I recall. So don't do that. And God loves homosexuals with a relentless passionate love. So much so that Christ died for them. ...and you... and me.